Confused - The Elusive William Thomas Ferris

[Winneba]

Hello to all enthusiasts,
Please, Please, help.
Can anyone help find birth/baptism/census details or anything useful for William Thomas Ferris/Ferries a cabinet maker, son of William Thomas Ferris/Ferries also a cabinet maker. I really would love to know his proper date of birth and where he was born. Did he invent a father? Did he lie about his age?
There was some oral evidence (sadly not now able to be again confirmed) that he was a Roman Catholic. Unfortunately Catholics records are not centralised so where should I look. Oral evidence suggested he insisted that his sons must be baptised into the Catholic Church. The only surviving son was William Thomas Ferris bn 15/8/1912. The only other son Albert died as an infant. The girls seem to have been of little interest to him.
Although he seemed to have lived in Shoreditch/Bethnal Green area of London at and after his marriage I am not totally convinced he was born there but could be wrong.
His marriage cert 9/2/1903 shows age as 26 thus born c1877
His death cert 27/7/1918 shows age 40 - thus born c1878
Commonwealth War Graves shows age as 43 and the war memorial says 42 (I have seen it but it could have been a mistake by the mason) CWG assure me that they always check very carefully with kin –( his widow) for details)
I have found some of his Service papers WW1 – Some in very poor condition and unreadable.
Unfortunately the ones showing the gruesome details of the period before died are the clearest but not the details I want
One dated 9/12/1916 states that “as he is over 41we have no documents”
One dated Dec 1916 gives age as 46 yrs 6 months (it is the right person as the wife and children are correct)
One dated 28 July 1918 reporting his death shows his age as 50 - also the right person. – thus born c1878
I was informed by Norfolk Records Office when I phoned to see if I could arrange a visit that they do not have records for what was known as the Norfolk War Hospital, Thorpe, Norwich although a couple of years previously another phone call had said they did have the records – perhaps they have been transferred elsewhere?
Are there any other sources I could try? Is it now possible to check the original Service papers to see if they are more readable?
He did have two army numbers although this was not unusual in WW1.
If he was so old he could not have been conscripted in 1916! Could he have been in the army earlier and recalled as reservist when conscription was introduced or was he a volunteer? He apparently joined Dec 1916.
The only census I have found him on for certain is 1911 although some of the details are incorrect.
For 1901 I have checked all known addresses shown on birth certificates of all his children and his marriages cert. including the first child born prior to marriage 19/4/1902. Also the addresses on death certs. of two children who died in infancy, but not a glimme of any connection.
Grateful thanks for all suggestions

[Sylcec]

There is a birth registration:
Births Sep 1877: FERRIS, William Thomas Pancras 1b 27

Therefore, suggest that you order the certificate for this birth, which will give you the name of both his parents and his father's occupation.

Looking for marriages on FreeBMD 1870-1878 there are the following:
Mar 1870: FERRIS William Edward Shoreditch 1c 236
Sep 1870: FERRIS William Henry Islington 1b 342
Dec 1871: FERRIS William Shoreditch 1c 250

The 1871 entry may be correct, but suggest that you get the birth certificate first to confirm the father's name. Unfortunately, like yourself, I have not been able to find your William on the 1881 or 1891 census.

[Winneba]

Thanks for suggestions Syltec
Should have said I already tried the William Thomas Ferris bn St Pancras and he is the wrong one. Now think he is one who shown Free BMD as died Jun 1878 Pancras age 0.
I am currently loath to speculatively order many more for this one so am trying to check the FreeBMD oones through the census as a check first.
The problem is knowing which records to believe as the army records indicate he is much older than we originally thought. Surely they wouldn’t mistake ten years. If he was older then parent’s marriage theoretically took place pre 1867 so again I have been trying to follow possibles on the census before pursuing certificates again but without much success.
The earlier birth cert I am considering is William Thomas Ferris bn Jun 1867 Bermondsey – (as his wife’s father was born there before moving to East London and that could have been how he met his wife). Have not been able to find this one on the 1871 census so far either but could have missed it.
I don’t think that he would have invented his second Christian name “Thomas” as this is consistently shown on all records and there wouldn’t have been any reason to do so. Any further ideas welcome. Thanks again.

[callbrian]

Hi,
I have read through your posting and Sylvie's reply. Could you post names from the marriage cert you have. This could help locate William Ferris, it will give a wider scope to search ie wife's name and perhaps witnesses may help. I assume you have tried looking for Wm or Wm Thos in your searches?
Brian

[Winneba]

Thanks Brian. Original posting was getting quite long and complicated but here goes.
Marriage date 9/2/1903 by which time “wife” about 6 mths pregnant with second child.
Married Elizabeth Ann Cooling day of John (also John Henry Cooling –marble mason- there may be some odd aspects to his life!) There is no birth reg for her although there was one for earlier sister Elizabeth Ann Cooling This one was a twin who died age 2 – I have certs Perhaps they didn’t bother a second time!) After a lot of searching I did manage to find a baptism for the surviving Eliz. Ann. in Bethnal Green. Right parents etc. I have a lot of her bits and pieces and even a photo in widow’s weeds!
The Witnesses Thomas Shrimpton and Martha A nne Lee- it could Tee. The marriage took place at St Anne’s Church Hoxton (two of Eliz Ann’s grandchildren also baptised there)
The addresses for bride and groom are Pimlico Walk and Huntingdon St. It was after banns - haven’t been able to find a record of these but realising that the certificate was completed by the vicar had a special photographic record made (they were not filmed) to see if the original Signatures etc might give any clue. No help!
I really think perhaps pursuing the Catholic aspect might be the route as I have the certs for the two boy children one August 1912 and one 1914 any ideas on where to look please?
I did try Wm etc and even Thomas or Thos.etc but could have missed something.
Thanks again

[callbrian]

Hi again,
Is this your WT Ferris?
FERRIS
Initials: W T
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Pioneer
Regiment/Service: Royal Engineers
Unit Text: 302nd Road Construction Coy.
Age: 43
Date of Death: 27/07/1918
Service No: WR/20290
Additional information: Husband of Elizabeth Ann Ferris, of 49, Whiston St., Haggerston, London.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Screen Wall. 127. 64.
Cemetery: MANOR PARK CEMETERY
Brian

[Winneba]

Hi Brian,
Yes he is mine. As I said on original posting I had already found that ref. and then when looking at the detail of his service record different ages started to show up as I have indicated. The difference of a couple of years (marriage age and death age) was acceptable but to be described as 46 yrs 6mths in 1916 and age 50 when he died was a bit far out and when it has proved impssible to find any reliable census info prior to 1911 I was stumped.
Thanks for trying.

[Winneba]

Hi Brian,
On re-reading my original posting I see my typing was at fault. Death in 1918 age 50 would make him born circa 1868. Apologies.

[ksouthall]

Hi Brian,
On re-reading my original posting I see my typing was at fault. Death in 1918 age 50 would make him born circa 1868. Apologies.

This would fit with your earlier suggestion:-

The earlier birth cert I am considering is William Thomas Ferris bn Jun 1867 Bermondsey – (as his wife’s father was born there before moving to East London and that could have been how he met his wife).

[Winneba]

Thanks for confirming my thoughts on the Bermondsey birth but this would only be potentially correct if the army papers are right and everyone else is wrong. Can you suggest the most likely sources of Catholic baptisms for the two sons - it might be that they were baptised at their father's church or the records might just give a clue to his origins. I note that most people who spell the surname as Ferries come from Scotland & the North East which might also account for the missing birth and absence from the census. The reg for his children spell the name 50/50 Ferries/Ferris and I understand that Ferries should be the correct way.Any further thoughts please.